Faulkner Fox is the author of Dispatches From a Not-So-Perfect Life: or How I Learned to Love the House, the Man, the Child. She lives in Durham, North Carolina with her husband and their two sons, and she is expecting a daughter in November. She teaches creative writing at Duke University. In May 2005, I spoke to her about the undeniable existence of "mommy wars," the ongoing surge of mommy guilt and perfectionism, how these dilemmas turn into mamaphobia in today's mothers, and what we can do about it. We also talked about being a mother and a writer.
-Sheri

mamazine.com: I don't know if you saw The Motherhood Study that recently came out. Findings found "no significant evidence to support what the media sometimes refer to as 'mommy wars,' supposed tensions between mothers who are employed in the workforce and mothers who are not. Beliefs, feelings and concerns were strikingly similar regardless of mothers' employment status." I was shocked.

Faulkner Fox: I definitely think that women judge each other, and I think that new mothers in general judge each other. That comes out of insecurity. I thought of it like a return to high school where you're doing something that you don't know what the rules are, you don't know what's expected, and so your own insecurity is projected out onto other people. I actually wrote an article; I don't know if you've seen it. It's on Mothers Movement Online and it's called Judging Mothers: How and Why Feminists Must Stop.

mamazine.com: Is it the one about the park and the yogurt?

Faulkner Fox: Yeah.

mamazine.com: I loved that.

Faulkner Fox: So I've been thinking about [judging] a lot because I really, really think it's women doing a disservice to each other. We should be on each other's side. But I disagree with anything that says there are no so-called "mommy wars." That's actually why I disagree with part of The Mommy Myth because that book is making it sound like the media has created this.

mamazine.com: Right.

Faulkner Fox: Right? So the media is pitting people against each other to hype things up. Nevertheless, at least in my experience and in the experience of everyone I know, a high level of judgment does exist between mothers, and it's not all being created by the media. You can be in a park, and it can just be a catty little aside like, "Ohhhh, you're not going to stay home with your child?"

mamazine.com: Oh totally.

Faulkner Fox: I don't agree with anything that says that kind of judgment doesn't exist. It's something I wish didn't exist. I would like it if women were always our best ideal sisterhood selves, but I don't think it's true. I don't think we always are. I mean, we're human, and I think that when we're stressed and tired and insecure about what we're doing, one of the things we do is judge other people who choose differently. It's something that I want us to be aware of and try to stop doing because I really think it's keeping us from banding together in support of things like better daycare and subsidies for women when they're home and all kinds of things that would actually really, really help us way, way more than sort of being snippy towards your neighbor.

mamazine.com: I was wondering if when they did that study… I wonder how [many of the interviewed moms responded from their ideal compassionate selves because they weren't in a position where they felt judged]. Cause if I'm asked, say, "Do you think moms should make their own baby food?" I would probably say "Oh no." You know, outwardly? But then it's when you're put in those positions where you feel like you really [need to] argue for what you're doing or what your choices are that [judgment] comes out. I just wonder if you're actually asked that question, "Do you support other mothers?" you would think you do.

Faulkner Fox: Of course you would and you would think you weren't judgmental. That actually became clear to me. I actually talk about that in the book that it was actually way more stressful for me to find myself becoming judgmental than the impact of any judgments against me were. So, in other words, I found myself becoming petty and judgmental despite myself, and that upset me more than feeling judged.

mamazine.com: Right.

Faulkner Fox: So it was like how can I have become such a small-minded person who's noticing other people's diaper choices? This is not the way I want to spend my mental energy! I don't even want to notice these things. I know they don't matter, but yet I keep noticing. I'm noticing how many hours this woman has a babysitter. I'm noticing if she ever exercises. It's just because it's so, so hard, and people are so desperate. So part of it's just curiosity, but the curiosity can quickly turn to judgment if you feel like someone's getting away with more than you are.

mamazine.com: Yes.

Faulkner Fox: People are so tired. And they feel like it's so unfair. If they see someone else, they're like, "Wait a minute!"

I met this woman in a mothers' group last year, and she talked about going to see her sister-in-law who had a full-time nanny and two kids and I think she was a lawyer, and this woman who was speaking was currently staying at home with her two kids, and she said she really wanted to be supportive and she saw how upset her sister-in-law was to leave the children, but that her emotional response was, "She's cheating!"

mamazine.com: Right.

Faulkner Fox: Right? It was that; it was that she's cheating. She shouldn't get to do this! So I think that we have to be honest when those feelings come up, but that's a lot different than projecting it onto someone else.

mamazine.com: Yeah, it's just amazing starting [mamazine.com]. We have plenty of people in our circle of moms that are working or not working and we're getting a response. We're trying to celebrate that a mom should have a little corner to herself and that it's okay.

Faulkner Fox: Right.

mamazine.com: And that can actually help you be happier if you feed that. Feed yourself first. And we're trying to get away from the judging. And that's different for every mom, but we've had career moms say, "I work so much that I have to spend all of my free time with my kids, and I'm sure that doesn't sound good to your readership." I'm kind of thrown that they feel, "I don't have time to feed myself, and I'm sorry that you don't like to hear that."

Faulkner Fox: Right.

mamazine.com: I'm thinking we're trying to do this good thing…

Faulkner Fox: People are so quick to feel judged no matter what.

mamazine.com: It feels like there's no way around it even when you're trying to stay away from it. Everybody just feels so guilty all the time.

Faulkner Fox: Right. And that's why I think it's ridiculous for anybody to say there are no "mommy wars" because people feel so guilty, and they're inevitably going to turn that out on someone else at some point. It's not like we're all paranoid or like we're making this up.

mamazine.com: It's true. So, this ongoing epidemic of mothers denying themselves… Do you think there's one specific change that you can see that would aid in getting us over that hump? How do you see that or is it just going to forever be a problem?

Faulkner Fox: It seems so much worse than it was even in the 70s, which is so strange to me. It's almost as if guilt is the price we have to pay for greater access to work. It's like okay, we can work, but then we have to feel guilty. Or we can choose not to work, but the fact that we had the choice of working means that we have to feel guilty.

mamazine.com: Right.

Faulkner Fox: So I just don't think my mother…I just remember like we always had babysitters on Friday and Saturday night. My parents went out to parties.

mamazine.com: Yeah, I remember parents in the 70s too.

Faulkner Fox: They just weren't so hard on themselves.

mamazine.com: Yeah.

Faulkner Fox: And so I think it's going to have to change because it's not sustainable for us to continue this way, but I really don't know why we are so hard on ourselves. I feel like it must have some connection to the fact that we do have greater opportunities. It's just that we're trying to do too much, I think is part of it.

mamazine.com: Be perfect at everything.

Faulkner Fox: Yeah, it's just way too time consuming. It's not possible, and it's got to change. And I feel like it's a consciousness kind of thing that could certainly be helped if there were greater social supports—if fathers did more, the government did more. There would be a lot of things that would help us to be able to give ourselves a break, but still there's a certain part that's still up to us. That part is attitudinal. Just be like, "I'm not going to feel guilty and I'm not going to try to be perfect and I know I can't do everything and I'm not going to try." I think it's also bad for kids because then they see that that's what they're supposed to do—always feel guilty, always try to be perfect. Cause they just act how we act more than whatever we would say.

mamazine.com: Exactly.

Faulkner Fox: So they're taking that in too, and I certainly wouldn't want any daughter of mine to feel like that. Or son, but if it's a particularly female problem at this point, I wouldn't want anybody to just inherit this.

mamazine.com: Right. Oh, it's true. Did you have a good Mother's Day, and how did you spend it?

Faulkner Fox: I did. Well, I started off on a bad foot. My husband was out of town, which I was angry about. He was in California, and so I woke up really early. My sons woke me up at like six, and they had forgotten that it was Mother's Day. So they woke me up, and I was tired. I'm pregnant, and on Mother's Day I was in the worst throes of a queasy first trimester. My two-year old nephew was also visiting on Mother's Day. He's a great kid, but he's also really tiring, so I was very upset at the beginning of the day. It felt like everybody had forgotten. My husband wasn't here, I felt sick and starving—such a weird combination—and where was my breakfast in bed? So I was not happy at the beginning of the day. But I got up and sort of just laid around a little bit, watching my sons and my nephew play together, and then my nephew and my brother went home, and some friends who are incredibly kind came over and took my kids strawberry picking.

mamazine.com: Nice.

Faulkner Fox: And as soon as they left, I fell asleep and I didn't wake up until they came back, which was three hours later. And then the boys had these beautiful trays of strawberries, which they gave to me and said, "Happy Mother's Day." And we made these strawberry smoothies, and then my husband came home and gave me a massage.

mamazine.com: So it got better.

Faulkner Fox: It got WAY better.

mamazine.com: Mine was the opposite. I got the breakfast in bed, but then it was like okay, Mother's Day's over.

Faulkner Fox: Yeah, get up and start working.

mamazine.com: "See you later. I'm outta here…" It's so funny cause I had a fight with my family because it's hard because you want to celebrate with them. My mother's in town so I want to celebrate with her, but I'm like, "You don't get it. It's so much work to have everybody over. I wanna just have a 'be me' day." We're in different places cause she wants to see the grandkids, and I just want to lie around. Lie around and read a book.

Faulkner Fox: How old are your kids?

mamazine.com: I just have one. He's two.

Faulkner Fox: Yeah, so that's a hard age.

mamazine.com: Yeah, so we're getting through that and potty training.

Faulkner Fox: Yeah, that's what my nephew was going through.

mamazine.com: Yeah, it's always a joy. I loved the scene in your book. I can't remember what event you were at, but you thought [a woman] asked "how's your work?" or "what you do for work?" and you misheard her question. You were so excited to talk about your creative work.

Faulkner Fox: Yeah. I heard her ask, "What do you do?" but really she had asked "When are you due?" I had been so excited to think someone had asked me something non-kid-related when I had a two-year-old and was pregnant.

mamazine.com: I loved that because it's just so true, especially when we get into being parents. It seems that all we talk about it how it is to be raising children.

Faulkner Fox: Yeah.

mamazine.com: So how do you continue to deal with that misconception that especially creative writing isn't real work?

Faulkner Fox: Well, once you have a book it's easier cause then people see that it is real. That's a huge thing. I really don't talk about it. I sort of like having a cover. So I'm also a teacher, but a lot of times I'll just say I'm a teacher or I teach writing. First of all, somebody gave me this advice really early on. It's really not good to talk a lot about something that's not done, like a book that you are writing. Because, and this is sort of sad, but because many, many people want to be creative writers, and if they aren't, they are jealous of other people who are, and they try to sort of knock you down. It sounds really paranoid, but this person was just saying, "You need to be more self protected. You need to really protect things that are in process." If it's going to be useful for you to talk about it, that's great…

mamazine.com: But if you're just throwing it out there…

Faulkner Fox: It can be kind of dangerous, and so I feel like I have a lot more legitimacy because I have a book. People are not really assuming that my work isn't real, but I also have a job where I go. Sometimes I just talk about that. If I feel like it's someone who's not really going to understand, I usually say I'm a writer and a teacher, and people say, "What do you write?" and I'll tell them… But I don't worry about it so much anymore because I'm not trying to prove something the same way that I was before. Even then though, I wouldn't always tell people. I mean I actually like that people would mistake me for a stay-at-home mother because I figured then it gave me a cover. Like if for whatever reason, say the book failed, I was still sort of covered. God knows I was busy enough. So it wasn't like people were like, "How can you only take care of your kids?" Everyone knew that was time consuming. So I don't feel like I need people to validate the doing of it. And then once you have a book, people do see that. But it's just hard for people to see when it's not concrete, and I don't really think that's people's faults necessarily cause other people can be like, "I'm a lawyer; this is my paycheck." It's just hard for people to see what it is.

mamazine.com: Right. They don't get it. Are you still working on poetry or do you have a new book in process? I know we're not supposed to be talking about it…

Faulkner Fox: It's fine. I don't mind talking to other writers about it. Yeah, I'm writing another book, and no, I haven't written poetry in a long time. I have a bunch of articles right now that I'm doing that are about parenting. But my next book doesn't have anything to do with motherhood; it's about religion.

mamazine.com: Oh good.

Faulkner Fox: That's just sort of a departure. I'm sure there are issues about sacrifice that will come up, and I'm sure that will relate to motherhood, but it's not about motherhood, per se.

mamazine.com: Well, that's good though. That's interesting. You have a readership now, and so we'll all be interested to hear what you have to say next.

Faulkner Fox: Yeah, hopefully people will jump over and read this, but then there will be a slightly different readership as well.

mamazine.com: Right and then you add on to it.

Faulkner Fox: Yeah, I think you can't really pick your topic. People said, "Oh, write a sequel about kids at school age." That's not as desperate of a situation to me somehow so I don't feel compelled—at least right now—to write a whole book on that.

mamazine.com: Yeah, I think it's true. Your topic kind of picks you. We don't really have a choice sometimes.

Faulkner Fox: Yeah, you have to write what feels compelling to you at that time.

mamazine.com: I was going to tell you that I'm stealing your word "mamaphobic." I don't know if you got it somewhere else, but…

Faulkner Fox: Oh!

mamazine.com: For my column, because I feel like that is the word. It's not just being afraid of other mothers, but it's being afraid of being seen as a mother.

Faulkner Fox: Right.

mamazine.com: My friend that's starting this with me, she's read every motherhood book out there under the sun, and I just kept going, "I'm not interested in that. I'm not interested in that."

Faulkner Fox: Yeah.

mamazine.com: And just kind of denying that whole thing. So I'm inspired by the word, and I've realized something about myself just by reading about it. So that's helpful to me.

Faulkner Fox: Well, good. We shouldn't have to be mamaphobic, afraid to be mothers! If there is enough support out there—from each other, from zines like mamazine.com, from well-written books that are not afraid to deal with motherhood in all its complexity—then more of us will be happy to identify as mothers. That was definitely my main goal with Dispatches From A Not-So-Perfect Life. I wanted to help women feel more comfortable about not being perfect, and to encourage women to seriously question whether "perfection" is even a worthwhile goal. I don't think it is. I think sisterhood and solidarity with other mothers is a much richer and more positive goal.